Angry Angry Salubri

[Nightfall]

Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min :3 max :7 average : 5.5
4x Adonai 7 AUS VAL for Salubri antitribu (group 2)
3x Wolf Valentine 4 VAL for Salubri antitribu (group 2)
2x Omaya 7 ANI AUS FOR pro Gangrel antitribu (group 2)
1x Ghivran Dalaal, The Dead God 5 FOR ani aus chi Ravnos (group 2)
1x Thomas Steed, The Angry 4 ani aus val Salubri antitribu (group 2)
1x Kervos, The Lieutenant 3 aus val Salubri antitribu (group 2)

Library [72 cards]
Action[8]
2x Games of Instinct
3x Nose of the Hound
3x Sense Vitality

Action Modifier/Combat[4]
4x Burning Touch

Combat[36]
3x Blissful Agony
5x Concealed Weapon
5x Sword of the Righteous
4x Taste of Vitae
6x Trap
7x Undead Persistence
3x Vengeance of Samiel
3x Weighted Walking Stick

Equipment[5]
2x .44 Magnum
3x Bang Nakh -- Tiger's Claws

Master[9]
4x Blood Doll
2x Fortitude
1x KRCG News Radio
1x Rötschreck
1x WMRH Talk Radio

Reaction[10]
5x Forced Awakening
2x My Enemy's Enemy
3x Telepathic Misdirection


The idea is to fight through your prey's minions and oust with Adonai's +1 bleed and some Burning Touches. There's some permanent intercept and bounce tech.

The !Salubri discipline spread basically sucks. They're meant to be a combat-oriented clan, but none of them have superior Fortitude and only two of them have any Fortitude at all. So I supplemented them with Omaya and Ghivran (who both have Animalism so they can use Sword of the Righteous and Blissful Agony). Nevertheless, I couldn't find any card-economical and reliable sort of combat module that would ensure their survival in most combat scenarios.

So I figured I'd just use Undead Persistence and Trap to make sure that they put their targets down before they take a nap themselves. The Walking Sticks and concealed Bang Nakhs will be the bread and butter of their offense, with just a couple of concealed Magnums so they won't be totally helpless at long range. Sense Vitality is there to bring the boys (and girl) back from torpor so they can block some more or torpedo another minion.

[lonewolf]

ha. nice. although the theme "suicidal fanatics" would better suit the assamites, this is good enough.

lose games of instinct. more often than not, you'll be the one in torpor. i suggest 1 more sense vitality and 1 more nose of the hound.

i really like valeren. seems like a potent discipline.

[Smooth Operator]

It works when you've set it up properly, but blows chunks when you haven't... The problem with Valeren is it is contingent on weapons as well as minions... It's not a "get-up-and-go" offensive discipline like protean or celerity, and there are quite a few ways to hose weapons based combat. But like I said, if you set up nicely, you'll be hacking things up left and right with stuff like Sword of the Righteous...

[lonewolf]

plus, i agree that !salubri vampires are teh shit. atleast the salubri have good representation. but for !salubri, no one can actually back-up Adonai reliably. in contrast, Matthias has Blanche Hill. and knowing LSJ, there will only be 1 bridge group 3 !salubri in the next set, and the others will be group 4s.

Valeren would have been nice... but Protean can already trump their asses. would have been nice if valeren cards weren't preventable aside from being aggravated.. thus the limitation in vamp representation could be acceptable

but alas. we are talking about bloodline vamps here. they werent made to be played on their own. ...

[Nightfall]

smoothoperator said:

It works when you've set it up properly, but blows chunks when you haven't... The problem with Valeren is it is contingent on weapons as well as minions... It's not a "get-up-and-go" offensive discipline like protean or celerity, and there are quite a few ways to hose weapons based combat. But like I said, if you set up nicely, you'll be hacking things up left and right with stuff like Sword of the Righteous...

Even Protean would suck ass if it were the only combat discipline that the Gangrel had.

The problem isn't with Valeren, actually. Sure, Immortal Grapple can screw you over a little bit, but Vengeance of Samiel is usable just as a strength+2 hand strike and Blissful Agony is a pretty decent source of environmental damage (weaker that Carrion Crows, but so is every other combat card in the game, if you really think about it).

It's just that unlike other close-combat specialists, the !Salubri have no access to: reliable maneuvers or range-setting, combat hosers (like Thoughts Betrayed, Skin Trap, Terror Frenzy, Immortal Grapple, Wave of Lethargy, etc.), anti-S:CE tech (except for Telepathic Tracking, which only Adonai can use) or even decent access to damage prevention.

The vampires suck.

Adonai and Wolf are the only ones with Fortitude or superior Valeren. Only Adonai has superior Auspex. And Doris McMillon has got to be the worst vampire in the game. Even Smudge has better utility.

[lonewolf]

actually. protean in itself is already enough.

maneuvers/presses/prevents/stealth/SCE/Combat-Strikes/intercept tapos may adaptability pa. suka. all in a combat package that cant be limited by immortal grapple

grabe ang protean. its not even funny.

[Nightfall]

As a proactive combat discipline, Protean is blood-intensive, card-intensive and has no way of dealing with casual damage prevention or evasive strikes. Synergy with Taste of Vitae is weak. The deck will tend to lose momentum fairly quickly. That's why Gangrel and !Gangrel combat decks tend to focus more on either Animalism or Celerity (or Potence).

Protean has better evasive combat and non-combat strategies.

Thaumaturgy is a better combat discipline than Protean.

Speaking of Thaumaturgy, now I understand how the Salubri were nearly wiped out. Theft, Blood Fury, Blood to Water... Trap is a bad idea. Undead Persistence can't save Adonai or Wolf from burning.

The best use of the !Salubri might be as weenies to supplement the !Ventrue or any deck that uses Auspex and Fortitude. Sense Vitality rocks.

[Stinkycat]

blessing of the name

if you're not playing that you're missing out on one of the key cards of the !salubri

[Stinkycat]

The vampires suck.

Adonai and Wolf are the only ones with Fortitude or superior Valeren. Only Adonai has superior Auspex. And Doris McMillon has got to be the worst vampire in the game. Even Smudge has better utility.

this is a post from derek ray from the google groups when bloodlines first came out (when concealed weapon wasn't the cool card it is now)




Doris McMillon gets a pair of Brass Knuckles.

She untaps with Gift of Bellona.


Doris McMillon now plays Bum's Rush and jumps on your ass.


Before range, she plays Sword of the Righteous -- and strikes with
Vengeance of Samiel for 4 aggravated damage.


She goes to torpor, but who cares? Kervos, the Lieutenant will be
playing Sense Vitality immediately afterwards ... and rescuing her from
torpor for free.


The !Salubri are going to be nasty, nasty, nasty. Who cares if you
S:CE? They're weenies; they've got plenty of actions, and you'll run
out.


--
Derek

[Stinkycat]

another funny anecdote by derek ray using the !salubri:

Best combo I've pulled with the !Salubri:

Thomas, Wolf, Doris all controlled and full.


Thomas gets a Brass Knuckles from my library. Doris equips with the
Brass Knuckles and untaps with Gift of the Boner. Doris Bum's Rushes my
prey's freshly-influenced Lazverinuts, plays Sword of the Righteous and
Vengeance of Samiel, and whacks him for 4 agg, while Laz cycles a few
cards looking for prevent and hits her for something like 7. Both go
ignominiously to torpor. Wolf Valentine plays Sense Vitality on Doris,
who returns from torpor and gains a blood.


Now, if this wasn't bad enough: Thomas Steed, the Cranky, plays
Blessing of the Name. Wolf goes and fetches the Brass Knuckles from
Doris. Doris diablerizes Lazverinuts and burns in the bloodhunt.
Thomas remains untapped with +1 intercept, and I influence out... Doris
McMillon.


Total cost of burning 1 Lazverinus: 2 pool, 7 cards. =)

[lonewolf]

meh? its just that the lazzinuts player didnt get the prevent on time. plus a magnum on lazzie would have benefitted him very much... indeed. ,

THOUGH I LOVE BLESSING OF THE NAME......

its like andres bonifacio (of course, in real history, andres sucks.) shouting.. SUUUUGGGGOOOOOD!!!!!!! with flaming bolos. now that is a sight to behold.

[Stinkycat]

here's another funny deck that you can do with them:

our playgroup has been witness to a SICK, really really sick (if
played well/correctly)!Sal deck with the !Ventrue. Lots of Fortitude
and some Dominate skill cards.
The deck relies on performing (i'm serious) 3-4 actions PER MINION
EVERY ROUND. AND it does it with consistency, finesse and is a total
bitch to play against. I didn't make the deck, but have a very good
understanding of how it runs...
Vamps:

2 Adonai
2 Wolf
2 Doris
1 thomas steed (maybe)
2 Ingrid (!Ven)
1 Peter blaine
2 Vanessa
1 Samson


Main cards:


Sense vitality 10-12 - basically your main card - either gain 2 blood,
or rescue one of your torporized vamps...
Daring the dawn ~8 - unblockable actions are your bread and butter
Change of target ~5 - sooo useful in this deck
Ghoul Retainers ~4 see above
Sunrise service ~6 - your !Ven perform this and then get saved with a
sense vitality (Btw, sense gets the stealth bonuses from Catacombs and
Humanitas)
Govern / Condish - total 8 - however you want to divy this up... go
more for modifiers as you will most likely bleed with Force of will...
your bleeds will be unblockable most of the time...
revelations ~5 - get rid of deflections, or force your prey to block
something
Blessing of the name ~6 - untap and untap and untap
Force of will - 6
freak drive - around 4-6
Blissful agony 1-2 for surprise...


basically you WANT your vamps to go to torpor when you want -
sometimes if you get blocked, you play a daring the dawn - the'll have
more blood after they get rescued via the sense Vitality.


So when watching the deck MOW, you witness each minion performing 2,
3, 4 actions a turn... you almost have to put counters on each minion
so that everyone knows what each minion did each turn...


you can fill in the rest.


hope this helps,


jds

[Stinkycat]

you should check the newsgroups regarding the salubri anti-tribu tactics --these are some tidbits of wisdom regarding them

using them as straight rush combat rarely works

Second: include a bunch of Computer Hacks and Burning Touch (BT is freely cyclable at inferior on bleeds if necessary), which will also help your combat a bit. Lots of your offense should be "I bleed for
2/3. Block?"

Also, Blessing of the Name will help, although I consider that a "double my actions this turn" card with some +1 intercept as a bonus. =)

the !Salubri require an extremely different approach
towards combat. Most other combat is based around "come get you and hit you harder than you hit me", in some form or other. The !Salubri look like they fit into that mold great with VAL/FOR... but they don't, because they're weenies. Weenies' biggest advantage is that they're disposable and they have lots of actions, ...so they should be played to
these strengths.

A few Fortitude skill cards are required, mostly to give Doris and Thomas their missing in-clans. Not a big deal.


The first trick is to stop trying to prevent damage with them. Include lots of Sense Vitality, and you'll do OK. Miriam Benyona helps here, of course. This turns combat with the !Salubri into a very real game of
Whack-a-Mole -- you bop one down, and it comes right back up ready to rumble next turn.


Next, how do you kill people? They keep preventing damage or maneuvering to long or all kinds of other wacky crap. What the hell? Why won't anyone stay at close anymore?


Meat Hooks, Undead Persistence, and Fake Out.


Prevention is now largely removed as an effective means of defeating the !Salubri, since Monkey of the Righteous lasts all combat. Meat Hooks are free (FREE, like Brass Knuckles!) and provide endless presses as long as you're whacking people with them. Undead Persistence handles all those nasty counter-combat issues like Carrion Crows, Potence, etc, and also removes the need for tons of Fortitude prevent. Fake Outs are necessary to stay up close to people and beat them with your Meat Hook.


The other surprise for S:CE? Aura Reading. Needs a couple Auspex skill cards as well in your deck if you want to go this way, but Aura Reading is played before range is determined. So you play Aura Reading, look at your opponent's hand... if you see S:CE, play nothing else and just whack them with your Meat Hook. The Meat Hook forces them to burn their S:CE anyway. If you don't see S:CE.. well, go ahead and drop that Sword of the Righteous.


Added benefit: You know what their hand is, and so does everyone else,
including THEIR prey. This will cramp up their style real good.

[Stinkycat]

If you want a Righteous weapon, keep this in mind: it is prerange that
costs 1 blood so play it when it counts. Here are my favorite ways to
use it:
* Fast Reaction to nullify opponent's strike.
* Aura Reading or Revelations to reveal hand and strike at the right
time.
* Trap/multiple rush to flush defense out of opponent's hand.

[Nightfall]

All good ideas, but seeing how they have no access to additional stealth, and how much intercept there is in our metagame, I don't think it would be very wise to rely on Sense Vitality.

I think I'll wait for the new !Salubri in Legacies. They seem pretty promising.